UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But here`s where it needs to end. Here`s where the truth needs to come out, OK? No more lies, no more bull coming out of your mouth. We`ve been very respectful. We`re taking our time and talking to you. We`re tired of all the lies. No more lies. What happened to Caylee?
The tension of the detectives has reached a point of sensitivity; note "very respectful" may indicate that they have the self-awareness to recognize their own breaking points and will soon be disrespectful as it has dawned upon them that this child is likely dead at the hands of her mother. A child is "missing" and a mother is "lying" means, quite simply: A plus B = C in their minds. What began as a missing child case, or a kidnapping, rapidly changed once it was known that Casey was lying.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do know. What happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know where she is. That is the God`s honest truth.
Note Casey's first response: "I don't know where she is" is a strong response. If left alone, It then must be verified or confirmed by facts to learn whether or not she is lying, but it is strong. Casey, however, never leaves well-enough alone but must always add in words: "That" is the God's Honest Truth"
1. "That" immediately establishes distance from her statement. "This is..." would have shown closeness.
2. "God's truth" would have been weak since the invocation of Deity often means deception
3. "God's honest truth" shows even more weakness enabling the listener to conclude that
"I don't know where she is" is a lie. Casey's own words, alone, without the need for affirmation, show she is lying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Where was she last time that you put her somewhere? Where was she?
CASEY ANTHONY: The last time I saw her was on those steps, at that apartment that I took you to this morning, the same apartment that I took the other officers to last night.
The shortest answer is always the best. Casey could have said "on the steps of that apartment" but she is a liar and works on the premise that the more she gives them the more likely they will be to believe her. It is not so, as the opposite is true: the extra details show a need to persuade. Note that by adding in "the same apartment that I took..." is in the same vein as her words of hyperbole or self-referencing "exactly, precisely, absolutely" that she uses far too often.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you didn`t give her to anyone while you were there.
An interview is the seeking of information via questions; an interrogation includes accusations of guilt. They know that she did not give Caylee to anyone.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen. Listen. Listen to me. We even pulled the surveillance video from the apartment complex. And they have to keep this by law for several days, OK? And we`re not seeing you over there. We`re not seeing you there at all that day. You think that we`re stupid and we`re not going to do this stuff?
Deceptive but not likely that Casey saw the verb tense nor the sensitivity of repetition.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re not stupid.
Notice the absence of her usual terms and additional words? You are looking at an actual sentence that Casey Anthony spoke which was truthful.
Casey Anthony spoke a truthful sentence. She recognized that they caught her lies; therefore, she knows they are not stupid. Casey Anthony spoke a truthful sentence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, we`re not seeing you there. So now if you`re not there and you`re not being seen there and somebody`s already saying that you`re not there, then everything else you told us is a lie.
SGT. SCOTT HAINES, SANTA ROSA COUNTY, FL, SHERIFF`S OFFICER: Absolutely. The investigators did a great job interviewing and interrogating this woman. They used some great tactics. Unfortunately, this woman is sticking to her series of lies and is doing absolutely nothing at all to help investigators find her child.
See part I for analysis on the interrogation.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, let me first say the investigators were brilliant. And there`s a saying in my field, If you ask a question, all you`ll get is an answer, meaning if you just say, Well, did you kill your child, and, Where is she...
See part I for analysis on the interrogation
DIMOND: Right.
MARSHALL: ... and you ask rote questions, you get rote answers. They did something very different. I listened to the whole tape. They supplied all the answers before they asked the questions. They spent about 20 minutes in set-up, saying, Look, there`s two possibilities, either you`re an evil monster and you`re a cold-blooded killer and you got rid of your daughter, or there was an accident and now you`re afraid.
Good interviewing/interrogation knows this principle well, which is why the Interviewer seeks to say as little as possible as reflected language, that is, giving words to the subject to speak, makes lying easier and less stressful. It is to be avoided as possible. The subject should not be told what words to use, should not be interrupted, and should do most of the talking.
Sapir: The greatest obstacle of gaining information in the interview is the Interviewer himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You roll about halfway down that hill, three quarters down that hill, and it`s a pretty big snowball, which means that there`s a lot of stuff going on right now. And I can tell you just for a certainty that everything you`ve told me so far has been a lie. I can tell you that with certainty. And let me explain why. Since I left you this morning, I`ve gone to every address that you told me. I looked up every name. I`ve talked to every person that you`ve (INAUDIBLE) to talk to, or tried to. I`ve reached out. I`ve talked to your ex-boyfriend. I`ve talked to Amy. I`ve talked to Tony. I came over here. I`ve already talked to all the employees and found out all these names that you`ve given me are people that either never worked here or have been fired (ph) here for a long time ago, OK?
So where we are right now is in a position that doesn`t look very good for you. And this is going to be your escape hatch, so to speak. This is going to be the point where you stop all lies and you stop all the fibs and you tell us exactly what`s going on.
I`m just being -- you know, being straight with you.
This would signal to Casey that they were not straights with her previously, which may be about the video tape they spoke of in present tense terms.
CASEY ANTHONY: OK. This would signal to Casey that they had not been straight with her previously, which may be a reference to the video tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because obviously, I know and you know that everything you`re telling me is a lie, correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I`ve told you.
Casey indicates that there may have been a sentence where she told the truth. (see above for that one sentence)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Pretty much everything that you`ve told me, including where Caylee is right now.
CASEY ANTHONY: That I still -- I don`t know where she is.
broken sentence indicates withheld information. She stopped herself for a reason.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure, you do. And you know...
CASEY ANTHONY: I absolutely do not.
If every time Casey said "absolutely" was flagged as a lie, the percentage of accuracy would be extremely high if not perfect. Imagine how many times she used this word since Caylee was murdered? Imagine how many times George and Cindy heard this word while Casey was out on bail from Leonard Padilla?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, let me -- let me...
(END AUDIO CLIP)
DIMOND: It gets a little bit heated there. Bethany Marshall, jump back in here. This woman looks right at these police officers as they`re saying, We think you`re lying. You know where your daughter is. And mostly, she just goes, Uh-huh, uh-huh.
MARSHALL: Well, see, but what they are doing is they are supplying the answers. They`re saying, These are all lies. That`s an answer. They`re saying it`s like a big snowball going down a hill. That is an answer that she can bite on or not bite on. Now, think of it like a big multiple choice questionnaire. She can start ticking off the things that apply or do not apply, and then they can begin to see, do the various responses match up? They can go into the various answers, see if one goes with another.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you`re more afraid...
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So wait a minute. So you`re more afraid of your mom`s reaction than you are if you ever see your daughter again?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m absolutely petrified. Absolutely petrified. I know my mom will never forgive me. I`m never going to forgive myself because there`s that chance that I might not see Caylee again, and I don`t want to think about it.
Note "absolutely" is used which for Casey's patterns, flags a lie. She is not petrified.
Note that "petrified" is repeated and confirms the lie.
Important to note: "I know my mom will never forgive me" has no additional words to signal a lie, and the fact that Cindy Anthony enters into her language during this critical time is of paramount importance to understanding motive.
Note that "chance" is sensitive but when added to "might" Casey is lying. She knows she will never see Caylee again and is lying. She lied about that, but not about her mother. Not everything Casey says is a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we found the nanny today and we found your baby, what`s your biggest -- what`s the next biggest hurdle for you in your life as far as maybe explaining something to somebody, or who -- what`s the next biggest concern? I know your major concern now is finding your baby.
CASEY ANTHONY: Honestly, that`s all I care about at this point.
Honestly---trigger for a lie AND the "at this point" is additional wording. The same pattern of lying. All that is missing is for her to say "absolutely"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zenaida give you any money that day?
CASEY ANTHONY: No. I would not have sold my daughter. If I wanted to really just get rid of her, I would have left her with my parents and I would have left. I would have moved out. I would have given my mom custody.
Casey Anthony had no intention of leaving Caylee alive.
Note the change of language: "my parents" became "my mom", without any apparent justification in reality. This is an indicator that she is lying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the main thing you want to do is find your daughter and you don`t think lying to us is going to help us find her, why would you do that?
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m scared and I know I`m running out of options. It`s been a month.
note that she was not "petrified" (fear so acute that it leads to inactivity). She is, however, scared. This is true.
She is running out of options; this is also true. She has tried various lies and has been caught. This is true.
It has been a month, this is a true estimate and she is still unable to get away with things and has not thought of a good way of being free from getting caught. Apparently, the accidental drowning lie did not yet occur to Casey Anthony yet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you scared of?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m scared of not seeing my daughter ever again.
Note that the additional words should always trigger a red flag with an analyst when viewing the pattern of Casey Anthony. By adding "ever again" she shows that this is not what she is afraid of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And if you`re scared...
CASEY ANTHONY: And I`m honestly petrified...
Note that had she been "petrified" it would have led to inactivity. Casey is anything but inactive; constantly finding new lies and constantly moving from topic to topic. The word "honestly" triggers the red flag of deception. Casey is afraid, but she is not so deeply in fear that she is immobile.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you`re scared of not...
CASEY ANTHONY: ... of not seeing her again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... seeing your daughter again, OK, I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to solve that problem and help find your daughter quicker.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not.
broken sentences; an interviewer must never interrupt an interviewee as it stops the flow of information
ALLEN: Our purpose in coming here was to do what? Go where?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING CAYLEE: I guess there wasn`t a purpose. There wasn`t a purpose whatsoever to come up here.
ALLEN: So we`re wasting time, valuable time that ought to be used to find your daughter.
C. ANTHONY: I`m trying to think of places where I know she`s been.
ALLEN: No -- you`re not answering my question. Do you want us to help.
C. ANTHONY: Yes.
ALLEN: Do you want us to help find your daughter?
C. ANTHONY: I do want you to help.
ALLEN: Well, then you need to help me. A good starting point would be to answer the questions, OK? If I say you were here because, and then you just ignore that, as if I never asked it and go off in some other direction, is that answering the question?
C. ANTHONY: No.
ALLEN: OK. All right. Let`s go through this again. We`re here because - - we got here how -- to do what?
C. ANTHONY: Because I lied, because I brought you up here. And honestly, I was reaching for another avenue.
ALLEN: And I`ll stop right there. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter.
C. ANTHONY: It`s going to.
ALLEN: Huh?
C. ANTHONY: It`s not right.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DIANE DIMOND, GUEST HOST: Boy, she finally got that right. It doesn`t help to lie to the cops, if you need help finding your daughter.
Good evening, everybody, I`m Diane Dimond, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight.
At one point, the police detectives, who have taken Casey Anthony into a conference room at Universal Studios to talk to her, they flip on the tape recorder, and at one point, I want you to listen to this piece of the tape, they ask her, point blank, if she has hurt her daughter in any way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLEN: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
C. ANTHONY: No, sir.
ALLEN: Did you hurt Caylee or leave her somewhere and you`re worried that if we find that out that people are going to look at you in the wrong way?
C. ANTHONY: No, sir.
ALLEN: You`re telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and never returned?
C. ANTHONY: She is the last person I have seen with my daughter, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: That doesn`t help, at all. We also get some insight into what the police are thinking from some of this tape. They say there are two possibilities with Caylee. Either you gave her to someone that you don`t want anyone to find out about, because they`ll think you`re a bad mom, or something happened to Caylee, and Caylee is buried somewhere, or in a trash can somewhere.
Not even that statement cracks this mother.
Let`s go out to the phones now. Phyllis is calling in from Pennsylvania. Hi, Phyllis.
PHYLLIS, PENNSYLVANIA RESIDENT: Hi.
DIMOND: What`s your question, my dear?
PHYLLIS: I have a question for the psychologist.
DIMOND: OK.
PHYLLIS: I listened to both of these tapes on the Web this afternoon, thoroughly. Toward the end of the second one, Casey refers to Caylee in the past tense. She`s talking about things that she liked to do, and she went to Blanchard Park, and she referred to her in the past tense.
DIMOND: I get you.
C. ANTHONY: I`m sorry I`ve given you guys the run-around.
WELLS: Well, we`re not trying to be big, scary guys. We`re just trying to.
C. ANTHONY: Oh, I know.
She isn't afraid of them.
WELLS: We`re just trying to make sure we get the accurate information, so we have something to work off of.
C. ANTHONY: I understand that. I just wish -- I honestly had more things to help with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLEN: So you`re more afraid -- so wait a minute. So you`re more afraid of your mom`s reaction than you are if you ever see your daughter again?
C. ANTHONY: No, I`m absolutely petrified. Absolutely petrified. I know my mom will never forgive me. I`m never going to forgive myself, because there`s that chance that I might not see Caylee again. And I don`t want to think about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: Yes, well, you know, that -- your mother always has the strings on you, no matter what. And maybe they should get Cindy Anthony more involved in questioning her daughter. That might get it off the dime.
Let`s go to another phone call, real quick here, Diane in Missouri. Hi, Diane. Nice name.
DIANE, MISSOURI RESIDENT: When they checked the trunk of the car -- the cadaver dogs -- did they check the dumpster and the landfill?
DIMOND: Oh, that`s a good question.
Nikki Pierce, do you know the answer to that, the dumpster that was right next to the car when they towed it away?
PIERCE: Actually, they did check the landfill. As it was explained to me the truck that took the garbage from that dumpster had a GPS on it and they knew exactly where to check in the landfill. It had a certain grid where it dumped so.
DIMOND: So they didn`t find anything.
PIERCE: They did check and didn`t find anything.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: My mom flat out told me yesterday, she will never be able to forgive me and I even told her, I`m never going to forgive myself.
Every day, I`ve been beating myself up for this. Every single day.
WELLS: Right.
C. ANTHONY: Not knowing where to go, what to do. Running in circles, literally, because that`s all I can do at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELICH: Remember we had those two people that we were talking about. The person who had an accident or made an accident or made a bad decision? And a person who`s just a cold-blooded callous monster?
That`s telling me that you are the second person, this cold-blooded callous monster.
C. ANTHONY: I`m not.
MELICH: . who doesn`t care and doesn`t want to help, because she`s afraid that something so heinous happened, that everyone is going to look at her and say she`s a monster, she deserves to go away, she deserves never see the light of day. This bad thing should happen to her.
I don`t want to believe that right now. But you`re not giving me no choice. You understand you`re giving me no choice.
This is -- listen, this is going to be the opportunity that you have, right now, no matter how heinous you think that what happened was to Caylee, this is your opportunity to tell us. This is going to be your only opportunity to tell us because what`s going to happen, we`re going to find out. There`s not going to be a question, we`re going to find out, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: Welcome back. I`m Diane Diamond, sitting in for Nancy Grace.
Let`s go back out to the attorneys, Joe Lawless, Doug Burns. All right, we have been listening all this time to this very explosive audio tape of this woman being interrogated.
Joe Lawless, say it gets to court. Say she is charged with murder. Do you try to get these tapes kept out of court?
JOE LAWLESS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT": Oh, absolutely. And that`s going to be one of the biggest problems that she faces, Diane, because this is now so emblazoned on the public`s mind. It`s like I`m ringing a bell.
But I think what has to happen is her lawyers will file a motion to suppress and the circumstances under which this interrogation was conducted will be examined. I don`t think the tape is going to help the police in this instance, because it`s a very aggressive, coercive, brow-beating kind of confession over an extended period of time.
And I`ve gotten confessions and statements that were incriminating thrown out for a lot less. And I don`t think these statements would hold up if they were examined by a judge at that point.
DIMOND: Spoken like a true defense attorney.
OK, Doug Burns, let me ask you. This is a serious question now. This woman may be arrested again on some more check forgery charges. She`s been in prison, out of prison, in prison, out of prison.
Don`t the authorities in Orlando run the risk of looking like they`re really picking on her while she is down if they arrest her again?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, it`s like a ping-pong match, I mean, back and forth, back and forth. Bail bondsman and bounty hunters showing up and bailing her out only to have her go back in. In and out, in and out. So you`re absolutely right.
How the public is going to perceive it, it`s hard to say. But, at this point, my understanding was that, the recent round of charges just formalized the earlier, you know, sort of complaint charges and that she`s still on bail.
But if they arrest her again and she goes in again, I think people are going to say, wait a minute, what is going on?
DIMOND: Yes, make up your mind.
BURNS: Right.
DIMOND: Either charge her or you don`t.
Let`s go out to the phones again. This time, South Carolina, Marge. Hi, Marge.
MARY, SOUTH CAROLINA RESIDENT: Mary?
DIMOND: Oh, Mary, is it Mary?
MARY: Yes.
DIMOND: I`m sorry, Mary in South Carolina. What`s your question?
MARY: I want to know, how does lying make this woman a murderer or even -- I mean maybe she`s telling the truth. Maybe she truly does not know where her daughter is.
DIMOND: Well, you have a point there, Mary.
Bethany Marshall, a liar does not necessarily equate into a killer.
MARSHALL: No, it doesn`t. But she -- I have listened to the whole interrogation. She did not aid at all in the search for her daughter. She didn`t give them one tiny little clue that led anywhere.
Is that a mother who`s concerned about her daughter? And Joe Lawless said that this is a hard-nosed interrogation? They -- this was not that hard- nosed. All they did, consistently, all the way through, was present conflicting realities that did not go together and forced her to make a choice.
For instance, they said, boy, you said you`re really concerned about your daughter, but you`re lying and lying. Now, which is it? So those two things don`t go together.
DIMOND: Yes.
MARSHALL: Or if you lie and lie and lie, and you -- don`t go to jail, you know, people are going to see you as a cold-blooded killer. Which way is it? So they kept contrasting this choice, that choice, this choice, that choice.
I thought it was a really good strategy.
MARSHALL: Sergeant Scott Haines, who is with the sheriff`s department in Florida, jump in here. When you hear attorneys attack the way you interrogate someone when you`re trying to look for a missing child, you get a little angry?
HAINES: I don`t get angry. I`ve dealt with plenty of defense attorneys on very serious crimes before during trials. And that`s their job and we have our job. I don`t think there`s going to be any issue whatsoever. These statements will not get suppressed. I`m sure there was Miranda read beforehand. This was not hard-nosed.
One thing that definitely concerned me during the interrogations was any time an innocent person is innocent and allegations are made that they did something heinous such as killing their child, they will make strong denials that -- to the point where they will get angry and sometimes even combative.
DIMOND: You know, Sergeant.
HAINES: That`s how angry they`d get.
DIMOND: , that is a very good point. And not one time in all of these transcripts that I`ve been reading all day does she get her back up and say, hey, wait a minute, now I am trying to help you. I am not a liar.
One more quick point I want to get out here before we run out of time. Let`s go to Natisha, our producer on the scene there.
Natisha, let me ask you one thing about something she said in this transcript about -- when asked about the baby daddy, the father of Caylee. She talks about having his obituary, well, somewhere at home.
Do we really know if this man is dead or alive?
LANCE: Well, it seems as if police are satisfied with the story that Casey has given that the father of Caylee is, in fact, deceased. His name was never on the birth certificate. She said that this is someone who was a close friend of hers that she had known since she was about 5 or 6 years old.
But then we`ve heard other stories that it may be possibly somebody who she went to high school with. So it`s still kind of unknown. However, police are still satisfied with the story that she has given to them.
DIMOND: Well, maybe. There has been so much said and disproved and, you know, we never know.
All right, Natisha Lance, great job you`re doing out there, by the way, my dear.
Time now for CNN HEROES.
This is CNN rows.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN HEROES.
NINA CHARLSON, MOTHER OF FIREFIGHTER: There was excitement in his voice that his crew was going to be flown out into a remote area.
SCOTT CHARLSON, FALLEN FIREFIGHTER: Hey, it`s Scott. I just got called out to a fire in California. Just calling to let you guys know.
N. CHARLSON: And that was it.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Eight firefighters are presumed dead after a helicopter crashed in northern California.
N. CHARLSON: I don`t think there`s any words of wisdom that you can give somebody when they just found out that their son or daughter has burned to death. There`s a lot of things that need to be done for those families.
VICKI MINOR, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: I`m Vicki Minor, and I take care of injured and fallen firefighters and their families.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Southern California is starting to burn now.
MINOR: It`s not good.
Our firefighters rarely die or get injured in the state they live in. So the foundation raises money to get families to the bedside of those injured to and to help bring other family members in when a firefighter is killed.
JONATHAN FROHREICH, CRASH SURVIVOR: She actually showed up in my hospital room the day after it happened. She`s there to do anything for me.
MINOR: We provide their motels, we give them money. Whatever is needed, we`ll do.
I hope they feel they can go on and fight that fire and know that we`ll take care of their family and their friends.
ANNOUNCER: Get involved. CNN.com/heroes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DIMOND: Well, we have heard some bombshell tapes of Casey Anthony. But then again, it`s been a whole week of dramatic happenings in this case. Time now to take a look back at the week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tot mom Casey Anthony could be arrested at any moment.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The state attorney`s office has just issued 10 formal charges against tot mom Casey Anthony for allegedly forging three checks belonging to a friend.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Whoa, whoa, wait. First I`m hearing of this.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Yes.
GRACE: I`ve asked you 50 times what goes on in the house and suddenly, I`m hearing they asked the Anthonys to take a lie detector test and they did not do it?
PADILLA: That`s correct.
GRACE: Mr. Nejame, I -- certainly, you`ve tried to tell your clients, George and Cindy Anthony, the reason the public is having this reaction to them, because they -- many people believe -- have the power to convince Casey Anthony to tell the truth about little Caylee.
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: Do you think that there are any people in this earth that want to find Caylee more than they do?
GRACE: No, I do not. Whoa, wait a minute. Wait a minute. So while her daughter was missing, she was picking up dinners for her new boyfriend?
NATE, CASEY`S FORMER ROOMMATE: Yes, ma`am. I think one night she made pasta for everyone. Just you know.
GRACE: Did she ever mention over the pasta dinner that her 2-year-old was gone?
NATE: No, ma`am. She did not mention to us that Caylee was missing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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